to have to degree to higher tax rates for the upper income people? >> i think erskine and i both agree, if anybody out there who is-- quote-- rich doesn't think their taxes go up, the drinks are on me. heil cover it. >> schieffer: so you think they've got to do that. also, don't you think the democrats are going to have to agree to some entitlement reforms? >> sure, but you don't have to do the tax increase. you go into the tax code, and dig into those tax expenditures, but there's no time to do that. but, yes, i mean, the bizarre thing, not touching the entitlements. the entitlements are the engine on the train driving us to the cliff. they were on automatic pilot. health care, it doesn't matter what you call it, is on automatic pilot responsible and it's going to squeeze out all the discretionary think about-- defense, r&d, research, all the things you love. erskine and i always say, what do you love? and they name something and we say forget it because this is wiping everything. it's just a destructive force. no cost containment till down the road. >> schieffer: sore erskine bowles,